Cure for the Paragon Blues

Paragon Blues? If you play or DM DND 4E with characters in the Paragon Tier, levels 11 - 20, you may have experienced some of the Paragon Blues:

Wizards is slowly fixing this problem; new feats help address the paragon imbalance, for example. But I currently run a game in which the main player characters are 14th level; I needed, and still need, fixes which would address the balance and help speed up the game. The Paragon Blues hit us big time over the last few sessions. A standard combat, a run-of-the-mill encounter, ran more than three hours; getting through five encounters in an eight hour session was often a pipe dream. The game was bogging down in combat. In an exciting heroic fantasy that DND best describes, 'bogging down' and 'combat' just should not appear in the same sentence.

So we experimented with fixes. Most were tweaks that were quickly discarded as not making enough difference to speed of the game to be worth the bother of remembering the rules variant. But eventually I hit upon one that the players enjoyed, and made a significant difference in combat.

The solution I have been testing over the last three months or so is included in the PDF you can grab at the link. It uses the concept of formalized house rules and session rules, concepts which I wrote for the Dungeon Masters Guide 2. It also imports a design mechanic I well used in previous tabletop games I designed, such as Earthdawn and Torg; an open-ended die roll for skill resolution. If your players really don't like open-ended mechanics, this won't be for them. The mechanic is intentionally tilted toward the players, so if this clashes with your DM style, then it probably isn't a good fit. But if you are looking for a cure to the Paragon Blues, give these rules a test run.

What I would like to hear from you, the discerning reader and RPG player, is what fixes you have used, home brew rules you have tried, and modifications you have made to help Paragon tier players over the hump. I have heard of cutting monster hit points in half; that seemed a little drastic, but if your group has had good experience doing that, I would love to know. Do you add capabilities to the player characters, or do you subtract defense from the monsters? Something completely different from that?

So let me hear your tales of Paragon tribulation, and what you have done to make things better for your player characters. I, and my players, would be very interested in what you have to say.

...
written by TK, August 05, 2009

As a DM the best way I've found to employ that permits battles to be sped up a little is to stop using Brute monsters altogether. Lots of strikers and controllers that are fast, like a swarm of Vivisects, make for much more fun even if their CR is slightly under that of the players level. Just like the idea of having minions, more weak but fast/damaging enemies can make for a much more fun encounter than a few high level tanks can. The only exception to this rule that I make is elites. Brute Elites are considerably difficult to deal with and make excellent boss fights for the end of an adventure.

The problem with brutes is that they're just plain miserable to take down and bring back memories of the 3.5e rollfest. The brute stands infront of the player, the player stands infront of the brute, and you roll for half an hour until one of you goes down. It's not terribly engaging or fun and it takes absolutely forever given their HP and ACs.

report abuse

vote down

vote up

Votes: +0

...
written by Greg Gorden, August 19, 2009

I find the hit point acceleration for monsters is a problem at paragon level in general, and exacerbated with Brutes. I agree with you that elite brutes are best reserved for bosses. An elite brute with supporting monsters is very often a tougher fight than the Solo monster worth similar xp.

On the flip side, I have found that using Solo monsters as they are meant to be used, i.e. solo against the group, is often a slaughterfest favoring the players. The reason is all the conditions a party can inflict only have one target. Even with a 5 saving throw, my solos usually get knocked down with significant minuses to their attacks within a round or two. They often never get back up.

report abuse

vote down

vote up

Votes: +0

Written by Greg Gorden
Saturday, 18 July 2009 22:44
Midweek Musings this week opens the discussion on the Paragon Blues for DND 4E. Paragon Blues? If you play or DM DND 4E with characters in the Paragon Tier, levels 11 - 20, you may have experienced some of the Paragon Blues: Combat balance which tips away from the player characters. Level-appropriate battles that can take three times as long as their heroic tier equivalents. Monster defenses and hit points which have clearly won the arms race against player character encounter and at-will powers. Wizards is slowly fixing this problem; new feats help address the paragon imbalance, for example. But I currently run a game in which the main player characters are 14th level; I needed, and still need, fixes which would address the balance and help speed up the game. The Paragon Blues hit us big time over the last few sessions. A standard combat, a run-of-the-mill encounter, ran more than three hours; getting through five encounters in an eight hour session was often a pipe dream. The game was bogging down in combat. In an exciting heroic fantasy that DND best describes, 'bogging down' and 'combat' just should not appear in the same sentence. So we experimented with fixes. Most were tweaks that were quickly discarded as not making enough difference to speed of the game to be worth the bother of remembering the rules variant. But eventually I hit upon one that the players enjoyed, and made a significant difference in combat. The solution I have been testing over the last three months or so is included in the PDF you can grab at the link. It uses the concept of formalized house rules and session rules, concepts which I wrote for the Dungeon Masters Guide 2. It also imports a design mechanic I well used in previous tabletop games I designed, such as Earthdawn and Torg; an open-ended die roll for skill resolution. If your players really don't like open-ended mechanics, this won't be for them. The mechanic is intentionally tilted toward the players, so if this clashes with your DM style, then it probably isn't a good fit. But if you are looking for a cure to the Paragon Blues, give these rules a test run. What I would like to hear from you, the discerning reader and RPG player, is what fixes you have used, home brew rules you have tried, and modifications you have made to help Paragon tier players over the hump. I have heard of cutting monster hit points in half; that seemed a little drastic, but if your group has had good experience doing that, I would love to know. Do you add capabilities to the player characters, or do you subtract defense from the monsters? Something completely different from that? So let me hear your tales of Paragon tribulation, and what you have done to make things better for your player characters. I, and my players, would be very interested in what you have to say. Cure for the Paragon Blues Set as favorite Bookmark Email This Hits: 1269 Comments (2) Subscribe to this comment's feed ... written by TK, August 05, 2009 As a DM the best way I've found to employ that permits battles to be sped up a little is to stop using Brute monsters altogether. Lots of strikers and controllers that are fast, like a swarm of Vivisects, make for much more fun even if their CR is slightly under that of the players level. Just like the idea of having minions, more weak but fast/damaging enemies can make for a much more fun encounter than a few high level tanks can. The only exception to this rule that I make is elites. Brute Elites are considerably difficult to deal with and make excellent boss fights for the end of an adventure. The problem with brutes is that they're just plain miserable to take down and bring back memories of the 3.5e rollfest. The brute stands infront of the player, the player stands infront of the brute, and you roll for half an hour until one of you goes down. It's not terribly engaging or fun and it takes absolutely forever given their HP and ACs. report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +0 ... written by Greg Gorden, August 19, 2009 I find the hit point acceleration for monsters is a problem at paragon level in general, and exacerbated with Brutes. I agree with you that elite brutes are best reserved for bosses. An elite brute with supporting monsters is very often a tougher fight than the Solo monster worth similar xp. On the flip side, I have found that using Solo monsters as they are meant to be used, i.e. solo against the group, is often a slaughterfest favoring the players. The reason is all the conditions a party can inflict only have one target. Even with a 5 saving throw, my solos usually get knocked down with significant minuses to their attacks within a round or two. They often never get back up. report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +0 Write comment Name Email Website Title Comment smaller \| bigger Subscribe via email (Registered users only) I have read and agree to the Terms of Usage.
Last Updated ( Wednesday, 22 July 2009 00:09 )